Gasbuddy Classifieds

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: All Things Ethanol > Topics	Add to favorite topics Post New Topic

Author	Topic: ETHANOL’S LACK OF COMPATIBILITY OVER STATED.	Post a Reply Back to Topics

goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 11:01:49 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Compiled and edited by Goldseeker. Gasoline is not a single substance. It is a complex mixture of components which vary widely in their physical and chemical properties. There is no such thing as pure gasoline. Gasoline must cover a wide range of operating conditions, such as variations in fuel systems, engine temperatures, fuel pumps and fuel pressure. It must also cover a variety of climates, altitudes, and driving patterns. The properties of gasoline must be balanced to give satisfactory engine performance over an extremely wide range of circumstances. In some respects, the prevailing quality standards represent compromises, so that all the numerous performance requirements may be satisfied. Auto manufacturers have, for many years, used materials that are compatible with oxygenated fuels. However, with the widespread use of oxygenated fuels and reformulated gasoline, certain myths have resurfaced, so they warrant mention here. I have presented the information into two categories, metals and elastomers.Most metal components in automobile fuel systems will corrode or rust in the presence of water, air or acidic compounds. The gasoline distribution system usually contains water, and additional moisture may collect in the automobile tank from condensation. Gasoline may also contain traces of sulfur and organic acids. Gasoline has always been recognized as potentially corrosive. Pipelines which distribute gasoline routinely require that corrosion inhibitors be contained in gasoline to protect their plain steel pipe. Therefore, corrosion inhibitors have been routinely added to gasoline for many years. Alcohols are more soluble in water than MTBE. The addition of ethanol will increase a gasoline’s ability to hold water. Therefore, an ethanol enhanced gasoline may have a slightly higher moisture content than non-blended gasoline. Several tests have been reported on ethanol enhanced gasolines. Vehicle fuel tanks and fuel system components from autos operated for extended periods on these blends were removed, cut open, and examined. These tests have generally concluded that ethanol does not increase corrosion in normal, everyday operation. Auto manufacturers have indicated they do not have major concerns about metal corrosion, provided that all fuels contain effective corrosion inhibitors at the proper treatment levels. Responsible ethanol producers recognize that not all commercial gasolines are adequately treated for blending, and have, for some time, included a corrosion inhibitor in their ethanol. Elastomer compatibility is more difficult to generalize. A number of gasoline ingredients can have an effect on elastomer swelling and deterioration. For instance, aromatics, such as benzene, toluene, and xylene, have been shown to have detrimental effects on some fuel system elastomers. gasolines sold today have a higher level of aromatics than those sold in the 1970s. The addition of alcohols or ethers to gasoline can also cause swelling in fuel system elastomers. Swelling can be severe with methanol, but relatively insignificant with other alcohols. Ten volume percent ethanol contributes less swelling than the amount of additional aromatics needed to obtain the same increase in octane number. The combination of ethanol or MTBE with high aromatic levels may cause greater swelling than either product by itself. Automobile and parts manufacturers have been responsive to the changes occurring in today’s gasoline. Materials problems are less likely to occur with newer vehicles because of the upgrading of fuel system materials that has occurred since the introduction of higher aromatic unleaded gasolines and the addition of alcohols and ethers. All major automobile manufacturers have indicated that their late model vehicles are equipped with fuel system components upgraded for use with these fuels. While all auto manufacturers warrant the use of 10 percent ethanol blends or gasoline containing MTBE. Fuel systems in 1975 to 1980 model years were upgraded, but not to the same extent as later models. Pre- 1975 models may have fuel system components that are sensitive to high aromatic gasolines, alcohols and ethers. Specific documentation of the effect fuel components have on older fuel system parts is often lacking. Technicians who find themselves replacing parts on pre-1980 vehicles should specify that replacement parts be resistant to such fuel components. These products include Viton® (EGR valves, fuel inlet needle tips) and fluoro elastomers (fuel lines, evaporative control lines, etc.)It is interesting to note that many of the aromatic components of gasoline such as benzene, toluene, and xylene do not fare very well on chemical compatibility charts with common elastomers used in modern day engines. However, many of the same elastomer components show a good to excellent rating in the presence of ethanol. I have provided a link to Cole Palmer's chemical compatibility chart and also Dupont's chart so you too can see how ethanol and other components of aromatic gasolines fares in the presence of elastomers. Just click on the link, and then highlite all under materials and then pick you chemical. You will be surprised as I was to learn that ethanol fares much better than some regular components of gasoline. I was surprised that even natural rubber has an excellent rating with ethanol. While you are at it be sure to check out aromatic gasoline and regular gasoline. [Edited by: goldseeker at 4/19/2011 11:04:49 PM EST]

goldseeker

Champion Author
West Virginia

Posts:19,573
Points:2,721,740
Joined:Sep 2005

Message Posted: Apr 19, 2011 11:01:49 PM

Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse

Compiled and edited by Goldseeker.

Gasoline is not a single substance. It is a complex mixture of components which vary widely in their physical and chemical properties. There is no such thing as pure gasoline. Gasoline must cover a wide range of operating conditions, such as variations in fuel systems, engine temperatures, fuel pumps and fuel pressure. It must also cover a variety of climates, altitudes, and driving patterns. The properties of gasoline must be balanced to give satisfactory engine performance over an extremely wide range of circumstances. In some respects, the prevailing quality standards represent compromises, so that all the numerous performance requirements may be satisfied.

Auto manufacturers have, for many years, used materials that are compatible with oxygenated fuels. However, with the widespread use of oxygenated fuels and reformulated gasoline, certain myths have resurfaced, so they warrant mention here.

I have presented the information into two categories, metals and elastomers.Most metal components in automobile fuel systems will corrode or rust in the presence of water, air or acidic compounds. The gasoline distribution system usually contains water, and additional moisture may collect in the automobile tank from condensation. Gasoline may also contain traces of sulfur and organic acids. Gasoline has always been recognized as potentially corrosive. Pipelines which distribute gasoline routinely require that corrosion inhibitors be contained in gasoline to protect their plain steel pipe. Therefore, corrosion inhibitors have been routinely added to gasoline for many years.

Alcohols are more soluble in water than MTBE. The addition of ethanol will increase a gasoline’s ability to hold water. Therefore, an ethanol enhanced gasoline may have a slightly higher moisture content than non-blended gasoline. Several tests have been reported on ethanol enhanced gasolines. Vehicle fuel tanks and fuel system components from autos operated for extended periods on these blends were removed, cut open, and examined. These tests have generally concluded that ethanol does not increase corrosion in normal, everyday operation.

Auto manufacturers have indicated they do not have major concerns about metal corrosion, provided that all fuels contain effective corrosion inhibitors at the proper treatment levels. Responsible ethanol producers recognize that not all commercial gasolines are adequately treated for blending, and have, for some time, included a corrosion inhibitor in their ethanol.

Elastomer compatibility is more difficult to generalize. A number of gasoline ingredients can have an effect on elastomer swelling and deterioration. For instance, aromatics, such as benzene, toluene, and xylene, have been shown to have detrimental effects on some fuel system elastomers. gasolines sold today have a higher level of aromatics than those sold in the 1970s.

The addition of alcohols or ethers to gasoline can also cause swelling in fuel system elastomers. Swelling can be severe with methanol, but relatively insignificant with other alcohols. Ten volume percent ethanol contributes less swelling than the amount of additional aromatics needed to obtain the same increase in octane number. The combination of ethanol or MTBE with high aromatic levels may cause greater swelling than either product by itself.

Automobile and parts manufacturers have been responsive to the changes occurring in today’s gasoline. Materials problems are less likely to occur with newer vehicles because of the upgrading of fuel system materials that has occurred since the introduction of higher aromatic unleaded gasolines and the addition of alcohols and ethers. All major automobile manufacturers have indicated that their late model vehicles are equipped with fuel system components upgraded for use with these fuels.

While all auto manufacturers warrant the use of 10 percent ethanol blends or gasoline containing MTBE. Fuel systems in 1975 to 1980 model years were upgraded, but not to the same extent as later models. Pre- 1975 models may have fuel system components that are sensitive to high aromatic gasolines, alcohols and ethers. Specific documentation of the effect fuel components have on older fuel system parts is often lacking.

Technicians who find themselves replacing parts on pre-1980 vehicles should specify that replacement parts be resistant to such fuel components. These products include Viton® (EGR valves, fuel inlet needle tips) and fluoro elastomers (fuel lines, evaporative control lines, etc.)It is interesting to note that many of the aromatic components of gasoline such as benzene, toluene, and xylene do not fare very well on chemical compatibility charts with common elastomers used in modern day engines. However, many of the same elastomer components show a good to excellent rating in the presence of ethanol.

I have provided a link to Cole Palmer's chemical compatibility chart and also Dupont's chart so you too can see how ethanol and other components of aromatic gasolines fares in the presence of elastomers. Just click on the link, and then highlite all under materials and then pick you chemical. You will be surprised as I was to learn that ethanol fares much better than some regular components of gasoline. I was surprised that even natural rubber has an excellent rating with ethanol. While you are at it be sure to check out aromatic gasoline and regular gasoline.

[Edited by: goldseeker at 4/19/2011 11:04:49 PM EST]

REPLIES (newest first)

krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2011 10:22:44 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse I mix to get E35, and get the same mileage as E10 (more timing and leaner fuel mixture).
FIREJKP22 All-Star Author Pittsburgh Posts:588 Points:243,700 Joined:Feb 2003	Message Posted: Jun 11, 2011 11:32:55 AM Ignore FIREJKP22 Report Abuse Not in all cases TomTom. I've seen the same mpg when using a 25% blend of Ethanol. 10% is the worst blend you can use.
tomtom08 All-Star Author Providence Posts:567 Points:66,255 Joined:Dec 2008	Message Posted: Jun 11, 2011 11:29:14 AM Ignore tomtom08 Report Abuse we use gas for driving right? if so why would anyone want ethanol mixed in their gas, it brings down your gas mileage
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,490 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 11, 2011 9:15:03 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Yes, I prime my lawnmower using the (original) squeeze bulb.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jun 11, 2011 6:53:36 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse SS. It only took one pull on my mower, but I cheater. This Wally World special has a squeeze bulb to prime the carberator. Gee you would have thought after all these years (19) that nasty old ethanol would have eaten a hole in it.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,490 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 9, 2011 4:57:42 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse It only took 2 pulls to start my 40 year old lawnmower this spring. It sat with E10 in the tank all winter.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jun 9, 2011 3:04:14 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Fired my 2-stroke weedeater up today. Worked just fine. And that was after setting all winter with a tank of E10.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: May 28, 2011 10:03:12 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Melted fuel lines? Yes, that is right. It happened to me over 20 years ago. For those of you that are old enough to remember......back in the late 70s lead was removed from gasoline. This was mandated by Congress around 1977. Lead was a common octane booster up to that time. I am not sure what the gasoline industry used to replace lead, but I can assure you that it was not ethanol, as it was not readily available at that time. I can remember one day that I grabbed my faithfull chainsaw and attempted to start it and it would not fire. Turns out there was no fuel in tank. So I filled it up and noticed right away that the fuel ran out of the tank. Closer inspection showed that the fuel lines had actually melted. So I went to the auto parts store and got some new fuel line. I told the clerk what had happened and he said that several customers had reported the same thing. He said it was the new gasoline blends that was causing the problem. I do not know what component of gasoline caused the problem, but I know it was not ethanol. Perhaps benzene or toulene was added to the mix. In any case I replaced the fuel lines and never again had that problem. Ethanol blends are nearly everywhere in my part of the country. I have been using them exclusively now for over ten years, and have not had any trouble with fuel lines. That is not surprising as the real experts at Cole Palmer and Dupont have shown ethanol to be quite compatible with most elastomers that are commonly being used in todays engines.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 24, 2011 5:21:48 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse LOL. That was a good one James.
James48843 Veteran Author Michigan Posts:258 Points:156,495 Joined:Aug 2004	Message Posted: Apr 24, 2011 12:20:18 PM Ignore James48843 Report Abuse There are other things that can adversely affect a diaphragm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYqDvyB4A7w
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Apr 24, 2011 11:38:03 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Spring has sprung and it was time to check out all of my small engines, which includes a garden tractor, push mower, chainsaw and weedeater. Each of these sat all winter with a tank full of E10. Now according to members of the anti-ethanol crowd I should have pin holes in my fuel tanks, phase separation, dissolved fuel lines and so forth. Shucky darns! Each motor fired right up. My 19 year old push motor fired on its second pull. Simply amazing as I have used exclusively ethanol blends in this mower for 13 years. I am truly pleased with the service I have got out of this mower. There is plenty of nasty stuff in todays gasoline blends, and ethanol is not of them. There are other components such as benzene, and toluene that have poor compatibility ratings with synthetic rubbers. There is a very thin piece of rubber in many small engines located in the carberator called a diaphragm. This piece of rubber is paper thin and one would think that all of this nasty stuff would have did it in many years ago. Now, I am not suggesting that you too should leave your tanks full of fuel during the winter months. I guess I am just a little bit lazy, but I manage to get by with it every year, so I do not drain my tanks. I have and will continue to fill my fuel tanks with ethanol blends......and will be very proud to lower my dependence on foreign oil, even if it is only one gallon at a time.